Personally, from all I've read, what Gord Stamp said was a fairly typical Albertan response to frustration with having no voice in confederation. Now, even the voice of frustration is being silenced. The guy was working for the Conservatives, so my guess is that he felt Canada was worth his spare time -- he was willing to take action to make it work because despite private reservations about the outcome of the upcoming election, he must believe in Canada. Feelings, reactions, thoughts, opinions and ideas are all still legal in Canada. Each of them is subject to change, to circumstances and, if they are subject to scrutiny, they shouldn't be treated as toxic unless they are advocating something illegal.
Was his talk treasonous? Was it illegal? or was it the bravado that comes from the relative anonymity of venting on a forum or a blog?
Is there nowhere that people can say what they think anymore without it becoming more than what it is?
I've read through much of what Stamp wrote and I have to say I believe the reaction is over-blown. There were no personal attacks. He called Ontarians 'stupid eastern voters'. He suggested that others in Alberta also feel ready to bolt when they contemplate the idea of five more years of Liberal hegemony -- and that some of those people have ties to the Conservative Party. Big whoop!
Has no one ever had a family fight, walked out, slammed the door, and shouted 'I'm outta here'. In a family, you try to understand what drives a person to speak like that -- you don't bolt the door behind them. In Canada, we seem to only have that kind of compassion for Quebeckers.
There are a good many Quebeckers working in government, taking a Canadian paycheque, who have now, or in their past, entertained the notion of an independent Quebec. Canada has survived. Paul Martin has embraced them -- one lives in the Governor General's mansion, another is his Quebec Lieutenant and a Cabinet Minister. But a volunteer in a party that hasn't even formed a government gets fired?
Yes, people have the right to react to Stamp's comments as they see fit -- and I suppose the Conservative Party wants to distance itself from people who use what is considered 'extreme' rhetoric -- but let's face it, Quebec has been separating since I was a little kid. Everyone listens. Everyone cares. We hold up banners that say 'my Canada includes Quebec'. An Albertan suggests that the Liberal status quo -- imposed on him and his province by Ontario -- would feed separatist forces in Alberta and he's treated like a traitor. We listen seriously to avowed separatist Gilles Duceppe -- allow him a voice in federal election debates -- but this volunteer -- who is working for a party that has no intention of splitting up the country -- he must be punished because he is the voice of extremism? Give me a break.
I've been thinking about Stamp a lot since yesterday when I went to visit Candace on Planet X. Through her post, I was led to LackofGreyMatter or BucketsofLostBrainCells or maybe it was Bouquets of Grey, the anonymous stalker blogger who seems take perverse joy in twisting daggers and dancing on graves as a public service. In the comment section, he tells Candace:
That was about 12 hours after having written a post entitled: More Stampy Goodness where he continues to do '(y)our party a service' and trying to flush out more operatives in the thriving and nefarious Alberta separatist movement.That this matter may have caused Mr. Stamp some personal pain is not anything that I take any pleasure in. I do believe, however, that I've done your party a service by exposing him and allowing you to do the right thing.
It continues today, the newest post slamming 'contingent Canadians' -- those who say there are limits to what they can put up with from government. Buckets goes into a 'my country, right or wrong' soliloquy that brought tears to my eyes. No, really. He speaks of his love of nation and says "I like who we are and what we're becoming" vowing only to vote for people who feel the same:
"no matter what mistakes its people or governments make."
It's unconscionable that in a free country anyone might feel differently from Mr. Bucket -- and then have the audacity to actually express that feeling. You'd think we were living in a bloody democracy or something. Mr. Stamp and his separatist ilk don't love the fact that waste, sleaze, corruption, lies, and arrogance are being normalized by an autocratic regime, which through a decade or more of manipulation have managed to vilify any religion, philosophy or political thought-process that doesn't fall into line with their own? For shame, Mr. Stamp. For shame!
It isn't only that I don't find Mr. Stamp's opinions offensive, or even very shocking (which I don't) given the political climate in this country. Heck, if the Liberals get in again, I want to separate -- It's that -- rather than listening to what Stamp was saying, the Conservative Party and or/ Peter Goldring, his MP, allowed his fear of public sentiment to drop the axe without even giving a nod to the fact that what Stamp said resonates with a lot of people -- not all of them Albertans but all of them Canadians.
Buckets admits that the sum of Gord Stamp's work in the Alberta separation movement has been talking separation ‘after the next election’ since the early Chretien days. And while Stamp loses his position, the phantom Bucket slithers and trolls and gossips, looking for fresh meat to skewer in his smug, creepy way.
We woo Quebeckers who threaten separation and shun Albertans who even think of it.
Liberal Canada. Like it or shut up.
canadianna
21 comments:
I never thought about it like that.
And it's interesting too, because as we dump more money into Quebec, they just want to leave more. Actually, it's probably Alberta's extra money that's been fueling that kind of sponsorship effort.
It just comes down to jealousy.
Ever consider that Stamp was the one who resigned (or Goldring asked him to?) And it was not anyone on the left that fired him or forced him to quit?
Ever consider that it was Stamp himself that did his own "outing", and even bragged before he resigned that this was welcomed as it would give him a national stage to discuss his views?
Ever consider why Stamp resigned, or why Goldring asked him to step down? Surely it's not because easterners might "tut tut" at the Goldring campaign. The fact that Stamp decided to resign can only mean that he, or Goldring, or both, knew that there was a dishonesty in presenting the campaign in one light, and working, or seeming to be working for something completely different behind the scenes.
If Stamp's blogging opinions are so popular in the riding, then, this being a democracy and all, there should be no need for Stamp to take himself out of the campaign.
It is not "the left" that deprived Stamp of his place in the Goldring campaign, it seems pretty clear that "the left" had nothing to do with this except repeat what Stamp himself was spreading all over the blogosphere ... Stamp made his posts, Stamp exposed his own identity, and Stamp made the decision that his position was not a winning position (or believes it is a winning position and decided not to win.)
Seems to me this is another case of the right eating its own, and trying to blame it on the left.
No Yards: We all saw the little game Buckets was playing. It's on his Blog in his own words. We all see the cheerleading on Babble. We all see the ruse committed via email.
The game has changed.
no yards -- I never said anyone on 'the left' forced Gordon Stamp to resign (or Goldring to ask him to) -- on the contrary -- I concur with you on that point.
Stamp was not careful to conceal his identity, but it required someone to take the time to connect the dots to determine who he was. They did that by pretending to be a conservative asking for his role in the party etc. Stamp gave the info willingly, believing it was someone genuinely asking - the information was used to 'expose' him. If that isn't someone else doing the 'outing' . . .
As for his working for one thing while seeming to work for another. Get real. He was working to get his guy elected. How was that going to further the cause of Alberta separation unless the guy was a Liberal?
Stamp quit/was fired for political reasons. It doesn't sit well in the east that anyone from the west might question their place in confederation. If this guy was a Quebecker, it would be given a shrug.
You've read into my post a left/right thing and yet I blame the Conservatives for not having the guts to stand up for this guy -- a point which you conveniently ignore.
I blame Buckets for being a coward - which has nothing to do with his political leanings and everything to do with his tactics.
Stamp's failing is not that he has latent separatist leanings -- it's that he trusted someone who was a liar. The fact that the liar was also a liberal is not surprising, but it hardly has anything to do with my post.
There were a few Babble types trying to put the pieces together. Their comments are on Babble, on Bouquets.
That's the way they want to play the game.
Suggestions that's it's just the start too.
I guess they really think that all their friends and all their publically expressed opinions and secrets are safe behind anonymity we all know now is mighty fragile.
Yes, this is the the way they want the game to be played.
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war".
Show Buckets just what you think.
Join the "Power of Ten"
Stamp's real offense was posting an article stating that "Canada has no moral right to exist." The separatist commentary is secondary to that. This is not an issue of free speech. It is one about "hidden agendas." The Progressive Conservative Party - prior to Mulroney (damn his eyes) - as the party that largely created the Federation, would never have entered into a pact with separatists, Quebecois or Albertan. That was their electoral undoing for many decades, especially when Ontario solidly voted Tory, and the West (including Alberata) voted Liberal and/or Progressive. So don't bring the usual Albertan whining about Quebecois separatists into the argument. Separatists are separatists, wherever they reside. They are all traitors. Quebec and Alberta do pretty well in Confederation. Perhaps it is time that the two "spoiled children" grew-up and realised this fact. At any rate, stating that "Canada has no moral reason to exist" is pretty strong stuff. It is expected from the BQ and PQ, but the electorate DOES NOT expect it from an Official in a Federalist party. If Stamp hates the Dominion so much, then he should be honest about it and join a separatist Party. In trying to be part of a Federalist party, he opens the CPC to further charges of a "hidden agenda." Good Luck in getting the real Tory and Red Tory vote in Manitoba, Ontario, and the Atlantic Provinces now ...
Aeneas the Editor: We have a Governor General (Jean) and a Minister of Transport (LaPierre) who've said a few things they now regret and the whole country will ignore all that and be completely alarmed by a few words from some unknown real estate agent (Stamp) from Edmonton?
"The Progressive Conservative Party - prior to Mulroney (damn his eyes) - as the party that largely created the Federation, would never have entered into a pact with separatists"
Does Lucien Bouchard not ring a bell?
Don't revise history.
Mulroney chastised Joe Clark for cozying to sovereintists, but by the 1984, he went after their votes and in large part, got them.
Are the Liberals forever to not gain more seats in Quebec now that 49% of the electorate there has been tainted by voting Bloc?
Not to mention that ALL political parties campaigned in Quebec several times while an elected PQ government was in power.
Canada won't stay united by forever poxing anyone who ever contemplated separation. We must change minds.
So the Conservatives convince "would be" Alberta separatist that breaking up the country is wrong and that instead they should work with them to bring about change in this country to work for a united and strong Canada and somehow this is wrong.
For three elections now Federalist parties have convinced many Albertans to put aside ideas of separation and work for a united Canada.
There are a great deal of those "will be separatist" who are working on conservative campaigns. What, do you want them all to abondon thoughts of united Canada - quit the Conservatives and start immediately pushing for separation? You can't have it both ways. do you want them to work for a united Canada or not??
It is not the conservatives that are breaking up this country, it is the corrupt Liberals.
Because someone in the Conservative organizations says that many of the people working on their campaigns will be working for Alberta separation if the liberals get back in does not make them intent on breaking up this country. It is stating fact. It is saying we are working very hard to ensure all these people do not turn to the separatist, but if the liberals get back in we don’t think we can hold them back.
If the voters in the east can see all the corruption, criminal activity, incompetence, waste of money, broken promises and divisions this Liberal government has created and they can look the other way and vote them back into power, then I and thousands of other Albertans will have run out of patients. (only fools continue to do the same thing and expect different results – we might try and try again, but there is a breaking point) We may not be separatists today, because we hold onto the slim hope that this country can still be saved – if the Liberals get back in this time there will be a swift and huge number of separatists created overnight. It isn’t the Conservative party that will be responsible for that. I would bet that those working on campaigns ( I am not) who feel as I do, are not doing it to try and break up this country – but as one last attempt to hold it together.
Those in the east and the pundits can pretend the notion of Alberta separation doesn’t exist, that the feelings aren’t real. They are wrong! We talk about it a work, we talk about it with friends that have never talked politics ever before. We don’t say it in public for fear someone will call us a separist – some dirty little animals that wants to break up this country. We don’t want it to break up – we want it to work. Right now it isn’t working. Hiding your head in the sand and saying those feelings don’t exist in Alberta is just foolish.
When dealing with what Stamp said I am forced to accept that what is promoting the separatist feelings within Alberta and Quebec is the Liberal party of Canada.
One could easily say that Mr. Stamp was simply telling the supporters of the Liberal party of Canada that they are forcing the country apart.
Currently there are two federal separatist parties in Canada and their leads live in Quebec.
Canadi-anna, some of your points taken.
My comments were more meant to address some of the other commentators who seem to want to blame the left, or east for their own problems.
I personally don't have an issue with a separatist working on a federal campaign, the problem I have is when that separatist is not up front about their position.
There may be no crime involved, and the issue may or may not warrant dismissal (that's up to the MP, or the constituency involved to determine) but the truth is that who ever brought this information to light should be thanked, not vilified ... let the people know, and let the people decide ... obviously, with the decision made by Goldring, he was thankful that the information was found, and did not appreciate a separatist working on HIS campaign.
Stamp may not be a politician, but campaign manager is not an insignificant political position ... can you honestly say that if this were a Liberal story of one of their campaign managers with a "secret political life" that CPC bloggers upon finding this secret would not expose the secret?
As for the "outing" itself ... I suppose you feel it would have been more honest if it had been done using a secret tape recording instead of email?
No yards -
I hardly think you can call forum chatter or blog posting 'a secret political life'. Stamp was not working for separation, nor was he undermining the campaign of his MP. It is his opinions that have brought him down, not his actions -- and that is scary when people lose their jobs for their musings, rather than their actions or plans.
As for conservative bloggers jumping to condemn a Liberal blogger with a similar 'secret life' -- I've no doubt they would -- but I really can't see any of the conservative bloggers I've come across, going to the lengths that Buckets did to ruin a person. It isn't that I think his sleaze is a trait of the left -- it is the trait of a gutless sneak.
The comparison between the Grewal case and this is baseless. Whatever you think of Grewal, Dosanj and Murphy had far more influence and power -- one an Cabinet Minister with a high profile portfolio and the other the PM's closest advisor. It was theirs to simply say no- there would have been no conversations to tape. They didn't. The fact that both men maintain their positions within this administration is an indictment of all of us for not demanding better of our politicians. Just because the Liberal spinners wove a better tale, does not mitigate the underhandedness of two high ranking people within their party.
Stamp's ponderings don't even come close to the same planet, let alone similar territory. Buckets revelation has done no public service, it has done nothing but antagonize an already disenfranchised public out west, who have to wonder why someone like Stamp is unwelcome in Canada's political life and someone like Gilles Duceppe will receive a hefty Canadian pension till the day he dies -- even if Quebec eventually separates.
It's interesting that the only federal party willing to admit there are separatists in Alberta is the CPC - likely because their MPs have spoken to many of them. If you were to believe Anne McLellan, there are no separatists here at all, that's just a few "fringe" whackos & not to be taken seriously. She's so out of touch with her constituents it's almost, but not quite, funny. It is too bad that the media haven't realized their own role in the wedge politics of Canada.
A classic example of media feeding the fire is when Harper's "Firewall" policy is raised. I have yet to see a commentator take the 15 seconds it would take to explain that all that document does is suggest Alberta take steps similar to those Ontario & Quebec already have. But it's so much easier to keep Harper in the "scary" box.
I sent a link to my post to Paul Wells; I hope he actually reads it & thinks about it the next time Buckets or someone like Buckets sends him a "scoop" on a campaign worker of any stripe. Because I bet there are Albertan separatists working for NDP candidates; does anyone really think that Buckets will focus on "outing" them too?
Not bloody likely.
Its done fini your points are moot. Stamp is gone.
That's the sad truth of Canada I guess. I am in total agreement with you here! Why should the Tories shy away from the truth. It's sad how awful the media's biased influence is in this country.
Good post, Anna
I have been watching & listening to the same kind of rhetoric that is coming up in your comments from the left-leaning bloggers& the media for many years. Had it been a Liberal who made the statements about separation, it would have been glossed over by the media & the left-leaning bloggers. Although I do not belong to a federal or provincial party at all, I have been privately saying for the past 20 yrs or more,(at least ever since the first Charlotte Accord was defeated) that the only recourse for the West to "get in" is to "get out" of Canada in a serious way. But I will vote in this election & have voted in each of the elections held since I was old enough to vote. The CPC will have my vote as I am still hopeful that things can & will change. However, the change has to occur at the very basic level of government; how we determine who becomes a judge; a fair, equitable & elected senate; & even an elected Prime Minister. And free votes-- so that the elected official becomes responsible to his constituents not the party. I don't feel like I am a traitor to Canada, because I believe that the Liberal Party is the real traitor to Canada & not just to Alberta. The separist talk in Alberta will not go away even with a CPC win, whether it be with a majority or a minority win. However, there will be a wait & see attitude from Alberta.
"Just because the Liberal spinners wove a better tale, does not mitigate the underhandedness of two high ranking people within their party."
Male bovine excrement. Grewal LIED on May 17 and onwards to Canadians and possibly to his party when he claimed the Liberals were offering a Senate seat for MP votes. Then after holding onto the recordings for 12 days the CPC officially released the "full" and "pristine" and "uncut" recordings to support that allegation. Up to that point the Liberals were in really deep trouble on this issue. However, less than three days later it comes out from audio experts working from copies could discern signs of editing that somehow managed to be missed by the LOO during those 12 days when they had the originals. That is presuming that Grewal is the editor and not someone(s) in the LOO.
The one time the CPC addresses this missing material they refer to 30 seconds worth of material and claim technical reasons for the error. Then over the next several days an additional 35 MINUTES of recordings are released, and it is clear that this material was intentionally edited for content, since the material missing either made Grewal look worse or the Liberals better. Indeed, as it turned out the unedited recordings clearly refuted the Senate seat allegation. Once this comes out the CPC goes silent except to defend Grewal as being the victim of Liberal machine persecution.
Not once does the CPC explain who edited the tapes, when did the CPC leadership and Harper know they were edited, and why once they were aware of the edits did they not search out the guilty parties and take appropriate actions against them. After all, whoever did the edits made the CPC and Harper into public liars and damaged their credibility by having them engage in slander. A few weeks of paid stress leave is the only action taken against Grewal, and he was back for the SSM vote.
We know for a fact that Grewal lied knowingly from the start, since he was the person making the recordings he had to know that the Senate seat selling allegation was false. So why did he not get disciplined? The only answer I can see is because Harper and the CPC did not want to have to deal with having a serious scandal within their party and instead hoped they could bury it and have the public forget about it.
The reason the Liberal "spin" as you put it won is because the facts were on their side, and while trying to woo an opposition MP over with vague promises of future consideration looks slimy, making false criminal allegations, presenting faked evidence, and then getting caught at it and trying to pretend it never happened is far worse. The failure of so many CPC supporters to grasp this is disturbing. It leads one to believe that the much vaunted principles and ethics the CPC in so many of its supporters claim for themselves is situational and not consistent.
It also makes a good argument for calling Harper's concerns and promises about accountability highly dubious. If he will not face a serious scandal within his party when he is in Opposition, why then should anyone believe he would do so once in power? It is this unwillingness of CPC supporters to apply the same standards to their own that they apply to their opposition that is so disturbing, especially when at the same time these principles/morality/integrity/ethics are held up as a fundamental reason to vote CPC.
It is this hypocrisy that worries me about the CPC, and about many of its more vociferous supporters. No doubt I will be told I have the facts wrong in this, and that I am a victim of spin. It appears easier to dismiss that which one does not want to hear than to actually deal with it. I do not find that a trait which creates confidence in the convictions of anyone that acts in such a manner.
Grewal was exonerated by the RCMP Scotian!
"The RCMP has determined that no criminal investigation is warranted at this time."
Do you honestly think that if Grewal altered the tapes, the RCMP would not have detected this and pressed charges?
See www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/news/n_0520_e.htm
Martin's senior Quebec minister, Jean Lapierre, is a former Bloc-head. A few years back, a more vociferous, rabidly separatist individual could not be found than Jean Lapierre. Now he's got a cabinet post (though not for much longer). But that's OK of course. On the other hand, if a campaign chair for a Tory candidate even talks like a separatist, then obviously the whole party is called into question. Cry all you want you Liberal whiners, you're going down this time.
Scotian -- two words:
Belinda Stronach
Or did she really just cross the floor to prove she could get to the other side?
I'm positive the cabinet post didn't have anything to do with it.
Grewal isn't running again --- I think that says how Harper deals with scandals. How about the Liberals -- any of their scandal laden MPs giving it another go?
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