Thursday, August 23, 2018

Lose / Lose

In one way, it saved a lot of trouble, Bernier quitting the CPC. It might have been more unpleasant had they booted him out.

The sad thing is, I think a lot of us are torn -- while I find myself on the side of Bernier in terms of policy, his methods disturb me and I know that because of his prolific Twitter rants, he will appeal to all the wingnuts who latch onto anything that might mean their bigotry is being validated, regardless of the intent.

News that he's planning to create a new party is not really a shock after this week, but I'm sure many of us who support his ideas, will struggle to support him and his new party. This is not a positive exit strategy. How do we assume he'll manage to take leadership in a positive direction when he's ended his affiliation on a such a disastrously negative note.

I believe his concern for the direction of the country and the party is genuine. People are looking for strong, definite leadership and I think most conservatives see the extreme-left climate/gender/post-national ideology that has been wearing traditional Liberal colours, and are looking for a real alternative. Andrew Scheer is not that, not really. His middle-of-the-road, pragmatic approach might get him elected, but without real conservative policies, who cares? I'd rather hate Justin Trudeau for implementing policies I disagree with.

Scheer's response was no more graceful than Bernier's exit -
“(Bernier) probably made this choice to help Justin Trudeau a long time ago,” @AndrewScheer tells reporters in Halifax.  - @davidakin
Whine all you want when you close the door, not in front of the cameras.

So, if you're conservative, I guess we'll be waiting a while for our team to form government again.



Anonymous said...

old white guy says-----------------if being a wing nut means that we hate liberal socialist destructive polices and unbridled immigration of third world welfare cultures, then I am a wing nut. It is time to start thinking thoughts other than liberal lite and social BS, it is destroying Canada. If you don't like the phrasing or dislike the exhibited patriotism, you just might be a liberal socialist.

Canadianna said...

old white guy -- Not a problem at all with patriotism, being proud of our history, respecting our traditions, while also respecting people of other cultures who come and live peaceably here. I don't like people who think whites are better, or who thing we're the only ones who belong here or who would suggest that a person of another race doesn't belong. I live in the most multicultural area of my city that you can imagine and I feel pretty blessed. Sometimes it's hard watching things change, but not all change is bad. When I was young, the parks around here were empty every day... playgrounds full of equipment never touched. Now, I watch families, large happy families playing at those same parks, picnicking, having fun -- and I enjoy watching and I happy to see the change. Those cultures have a lot to share with us, and maybe to teach us about the value of community.

I'm all for protecting the borders, but I'm also for having well-vetted immigration and a sustainable refugee system and in this day and age, it isn't people from Scotland heading over -- and that's not an issue for me. In my experience, most people from most places want to work. There are exceptions, but they include born-Canadians. It isn't a race thing. It isn't a culture thing. It's a people thing and it exists everywhere where welfare does. We need to re-think a lot of things like that as a society but we don't need to single out any group for blame.

We talk about Liberals, unable to embrace diverse perspectives in their ranks, not allowing pro-life people to even be candidates and such... but here you are, on my blog, telling me that if I don't think like you, I can't be a conservative... how are you any different or better than the Liberals?

Guffman said...

Canadianna... you yourself said you wouldn't even bother to vote in the next election if it was Scheer vs Trudeau. There are plenty more voters with the same POV. Scheer does not inspire any confidence. He is weak... kind of a "low energy Jeb" type of leader, who could be pushed around far too easily by the media and lobbyists. He's already started by banning The Rebel from the PC Conference this week. Shameful! (Note 'PC' could just as easily stand for the 'Politically Correct' Conference here).

Bernier has true conservative principles and vision, and is not abandoning but fighting for those, and I applaud him for it.

It would be nice to see the rest of the Conservative party wake-up and realize they're backing a lame horse going into this next election. It's not too late to put him out to pasture and bring in Mad Max for the win!

Canadianna said...

I'm no fan of Scheer, but I wouldn't vote for Bernier either. He's burned a lot of
of bridges. He's forcing people to take sides, and this wasn't the time. I would have preferred he win the leadership, but he didn't. He should have stepped aside, gracefully, he hasn't. He's almost guaranteed four more years of Trudeau... while I don't like the idea of Scheer and his liberal-lite agenda, I think Trudeau's ideology goes beyond politics -- he has a worldview that IMO is unrealistic and dangerous, but he hasn't the brains to realize and he has an advisor who's going to make sure he sees it through.

Scheer would be mildly disappointing --Trudeau has already been a disaster. I'm not sure Canada can sustain four more years of his follies, especially if the US keeps Trump at the helm. Canada has alienated so many of its natural and new trading partners under Trudeau, a second term is unthinkable. Bernier selfishly decided that he and his ideas were more important - and while a lot of us share his opinions, politics is a process. You can't use a hammer to change minds.

All Bernier has done is scare away centrist voters who might have leaned towards us because of how insanely stupid Trudeau is. That won't happen now, and even if it did, Bernier will have drawn off enough of the hardest line conservative voters that it will be a split. There's a weak NDP, and two conservative parties. History repeats for those who don't learn. Bernier was wrong. Full stop.

Guffman said...

I respectfully disagree Canadianna. You say "He's forcing people to take sides, and this wasn't the time." When exactly would this magical time be? Perhaps after the uninspiring and feckless Scheer loses the next election and another leadership vote is held, with the same hand-wringing party insiders selecting another Scheerdeau?

We all know Max was railroaded out of the leadership last year, being far and away the party members favourite going in, only to have the party insiders (after multiple votes) all pile on to sink him. They didn't like his strong, outspoken conservative views and deemed we needed someone more milquetoast and PC that the MSM **might* approve of and be gentle with.

Go take a look at ALL of the comments today over at Small Dead Animals on 'Maxit' (my term :)). Then head over to Michelle Rempel's YouTube channel and the comments in the three videos she posted today... almost without exception, VERY pro-Bernier and rabidly anti-Scheer.
Of course this is a but small sampling of active Conservative followers, but very telling that there is almost NO support for Scheer in this fight.

Lastly, you said "You can't use a hammer to change minds.". Sometimes a hammer is exactly the tool that's needed, and what the electorate are begging for. Look at Doug Ford. And dare I bring up Trump, a political outsider with his strong, politically incorrect opinions and policies, who EVERYONE who thought they knew better laughed at and derided for 16+ months, condescendingly declaring he had no chance of winning, right up until... he did. In an electoral landslide.

I'm certainly not saying Max is another Trump, but it could be very shortsighted to underestimate or write him off, on his first day out no less... or to attempt to predict the outcome of an election more than a year out.

Anonymous said...

A recent poll found strong support among Canadians for reducing immigration. Mad Max could have beat Trudeau. Now we get to sit and watch a disaster campaign never before seen. You watch Scheer will lose the election in the first week or less even.

Canadianna said...

Guffman, you and I agree on policy. Bernier is who I would have chosen to be leader. That said, his tactics here will have turned off a lot of people. Twitter and SDA aside, those commenters are people who are actively following. Those aren't the people we need at election time. We needed the soft voters who can be swayed easily.

The rant that Bernier went on on Twitter is not becoming of a PM. We aren't the US. That sort of bludgeoning isn't going to work here - Ford won for a few reasons - first, the Liberals were long since done. Second, as much as Ford was portrayed by some of the media as Canadian Trump, he had the moderating voices of Christine Elliot and Caroline Mulroney and Lisa McLeod at his side. Bernier has managed to piss off everyone in his caucus. Comparisons to Trump will work on Bernier because they are being leveled not just by the Liberals and the media, but by fellow conservatives. Whether deserved or not, it's irrelevant. Most people don't pay enough attention to know the truth. Low information voters read the headlines.

There is simply no way in this country that a divided conservative party can win. I would LOVE to be proved wrong.

Anonymous -- Bernier could have beat Trudeau if he'd been leader. He wasn't. Scheer probably could have beat Trudeau too with a party that had broad appeal. Now the conservatives are in factions. The bigots on one side, the wimps on the other. Canadians are against increased immigration, but most consider themselves compassionate. Bernier's actions have allowed him to be branded and IMO, people will not want to align themselves with him, even in the privacy of the voter's booth.

If he had waited until the convention to air his concerns, maybe these issues could have been decided on the floor, but now we have a party in disarray and a new one already being held up as extreme right wing and anti-immigrate --which might be exactly what some people are hoping for -- but is probably not going to fly here.

Anyone who believes that any of this can benefit either of the conservative parties has not paid attention to history. Bernier and Scheer have a lot to answer for. Scheer for not acknowledging half the base, and Bernier for publically maligning the other half.

Guffman said...

"The bigots on one side, the wimps on the other." Really Canadianna???

You're labeling those of us who support Maxime Bernier bigots because he dared to suggest this extreme diversity push under Trudeau is not helping to unify or secure the country? And btw, it's not even immigration anymore, it's now become inundation - bringing tens of thousands of "refugees" over by the plane load (or allowing them just walk in across the Quebec border with RCMP serving as bellhops) and dumping them in university residences and hotels indefinitely all at taxpayers expense... many who don't even speak english yet. Where are they going to get employment in any foreseeable future? Max was 100% right to be the brave voice to get people thinking about what is happening to this country.

He and probably 99% of his supporters are NOT anti-immigration by any means. We're Canadians who are very much pro-immigration when it is immigration and citizenship by merit... bringing and allowing people in this country in a controlled manner, who WANT to be here to contribute and help grow a unified Canadian society, while still being able celebrate and enjoy their own cultural traditions at home and in the community, when in keeping within mores of a peaceful and just society. I hardly think that makes us "bigots".

Just, wow.

Miles Lunn said...

I think while this won't be good for Conservatives, Maxime Bernier will go nowhere for a few reasons.

1. Canada is by and large a centrist to centre-left country so you go too far to the right you have a limited appeal. It is the Red Tory/Blue Liberals who the Tories need to win over to win in 2019 and Bernier would not be able to do that.
2. Unlike in the 90s, most on the right have a visceral hatred of Trudeau and their desire to get rid of him will ensure they vote Conservative. The question again becomes are the Tories moderate enough to appeal to Red Tories/Blue Liberals who feel Trudeau has swung too far to the left but are wary the Tories are too right wing.

I am guessing Bernier will get at most 2% and so only if the election is super close will this cost the Tories the election. More importantly this is a chance to reach out to centre-right and centrist voters who are unhappy with Trudeau but still concerned about the Tories. I find too many Tories focus on what is ideal, not what is doable. Elections need to be fought on the art of possible, not what is ideal.

Canadianna said...

Guffman, It's funny, I thought it would be Scheer supporters who would get mad at me for calling them wimps. I figured Bernier supporters would get, that since I've openly stated that I agree with most of Bernier's ideas and much of what he said (if now how he presented it) that *bigot* was not something I would say, but something I believe that Bernier supporters will be perceived as -- Obviously that was said to make a point - if you read what I said at all, you'd realize that. Instead you've pulled a sentence out of context and decided I'm against you. I'm not. I'm against Bernier's tactics.

As cool as Bernier might be with well regulated immigration, that not how it's being branded -- by other Conservatives as well as the media. The alt-right label will stick regardless of what he meant by anything he's said. It isn't fair, but it will. I believe most of the people who agree with Bernier are not racists... like me, and like you... they believe in controlling our borders and properly vetted immigration -- but his tweet-storm appealed people who are racist and it's naïve not to see that. The first day, after he tweeted, I wrote on this blog that I understood his POV. Wasn't keen on using Twitter for this kind of issue, but I defended him. At that point, his actions were defensible. But now, he's torn the party asunder. It isn't just about his opinions, it's about his behaviour.

I've said, more than once, including in the post you're commenting on that I side with Bernier on many issues. I've said, I would have chosen him as leader. But the issue now is no longer which side of the divide you're on... the issue is the divide... because whichever side you're on, it's a losing one.

That's my point. We have a conservative leader-in-waiting in Bernier who now is being painted as a radical extremist (valid or not, irrelevant) and an actual Conservative leader who is being painted as another Trudeau, because he yields too easily to the moderate voices in the party and even some on the other side. How is this a winning situation? For anyone. It doesn't matter that Bernier and his supporters aren't bigots or that the majority of Andrew Scheer's policies are not in line with Trudeau's.

I'm not casting aspersions on you or any Bernier supporter. I believe you're entitled to your opinion and if it aligns more with Bernier, well, great. Vote for him. In my experience, most of the Bernier supporters are exactly as you said. The sad thing is though, that's not what it will come across as regardless of what anyone says. The Conservatives will have a vested interest in making Bernier's party the party of the fringe, and either way, neither party will claim a victory from this.

Bernier sees this as a great conservative cause... and most of us who follow politics are happy to see his stands on the Saudis, trade, free markets, supply management etc. which come in conjunction with his opinions on immigration - but everyone else is only seeing the immigration issue, and painting it as a race issue. Whether he meant it to be or not, its impetus makes this a one-cause party unless Bernier can do something to drastically change that. I don't see it happening. Politics is optics. It doesn't matter what's true. It's what's perceived to be true. Bernier, through his actions this week, has thrown himself outside of the mainstream.

Guffman said...

I'll leave it at this...

You're making exactly the point all the Bernier breakaway supporters are hoping to... we don't give a $hit how the media, or Liberals, or anyone else wants to paint us. We're NOT racists, and we're NOT xenophobes, and we're NOT going to be politically cowed because those groups try to bully us into submission or silence. Maybe you accept their labeling as a unchangeable fact of life, but a lot of Canadians are fed up with it and you'll soon see that.

And for anyone to even suggest that there are more than a handful of actual "racists" in our country is nonsense. I've never met a single one in my 56 years nor have I ever encountered anyone who claims they have... and I've traveled plenty in my life meeting all kinds of people from all walks of life. The word has become SO misused in the last decade that it's almost lost its meaning (much thanks to the media).

Calling out this kind of ever-repeated BS will bring much more support to Mad Max than you and other naysayers can imagine. We're tired of trading our principles for politically correct safe spaces.

I've often heard the expression, 'if you don't like the rules or the way things are, then go start your own party'. Max has shown he has the cojones to do exactly that, and people with that kind of purpose and ambition are how change comes about. A large majority of Canadians were foolish enough to vote in Trudeau once, and the same idiots may well do it again, to their country's detriment... but I'm not going to blame that on a man who finally dares to speak truth to power in this country, and who is willing to personally take the slings and arrows himself to try to make this a better country for EVERYONE. Anyone who sees this as a grandstanding, politically selfish and egotistical move on Max's part really doesn't understand the man and the unwavering values he has ALWAYS espoused.

Thanks for allowing my voice on your platform. Over and out.

Canadianna said...

Miles... a voice of reason.

Guffman, I appreciate what you say, and how strong your convictions are, but Bernier can’t win. And that’s the point of politics. Winning , so you can implement your ideas. It’s fine not to give a shit what people think of you, but in politics you have to. It’s important to speak your truth, and it was important to have those voices within a united Conservative Party. They won’t be heard from the sidelines. You’re welcome here, and I hope you’ll keep coming because I think all of us have the best interests of Canada at heart even if we differ on what they are and how to go about them.

dmorris said...

Canadiana, YOU are one hell of a debater! And that's a compliment.

Yes, those of us who supported Bernier will be described as bigots by the media/ Left cabal, that can't be helped. Most of us Canadian conservatives are passionate about rule of law and fairness, both of which the LPC only recognizes at their convenience,as in the current Border debacle.
That was all Bernier was tweeting about in his clumsy way.I wish politicians, Trump included,would stay the hell away from social media, I guess they're too vain to recognize how negative it can be to them.

I believe it is best that Bernier chose now to walk out on the Party that has essentially become the PC's again,an Ottawa-centric party that caters to the East in their arrogant assumption that the west will always be there for them.
Holding the convention in Liberal country instead of with his base in Ontario or the West was a huge mistake, indicative of how badly out of touch the CPC executive branch is.
Scheer is unfortunately,the new type of politician in Canada, a professional with a political science degree, no outside experience,and therefore no way of recognizing the consequences of his and his cronies theories on us peasants.
Scheer is only slightly less dangerous than Trudeau,the globalist puppet, but then Scheer is a laurentian elite puppet who agrees with Trudeau on many policies.

There is no indication that Scheer could have won against Trudeau if Bernier had stayed silent and complian. Scheer is unexciting, uninspiring, a mediocre speaker who has no idea how to build momentum in a speech,and last and not least in these times, the nerdiest looking candidate I have ever seen.He reminds me of a grade school teacher at times, risen above his ability in a good example of the Peter Principle.

Trudeau the grade "C" actor will beat Scheer badly in the televised debates, we can only hope they invite Bernier to the show with Elizabeth May so he can disrupt Trudeau's endless cliche'd chatter.

We conservatives should pray that Bernier has some wealthy backers that can help him form a Quebec wing of the conservative movement,like Lucien Bouchard,and defeat Trudeau in Quebec, but unless he knows people with deep pockets,I doubt that will happen.

Barring a disaster for the Liberal Party, I believe we will suffer another Trudeau majority government. This has little to do with Bernier, and everything to do with the CPC allowing Scheer to steal the election as Party leader in the first place. I know many long time conservatives who were absolutely shocked when Scheer won it.

As they so often do,the Conservatives backed the wrong candidate,again.

canadianna said...

Thanks so much for your kind words, dmorris... and sadly, I agree with everything you've said here and I actually in a small sort of way, share your hope for Bernier if only for vindication of what I believe are actually mainstream opinions you're not allowed to talk about in Canada.

I think that's what's so infuriating about it all, is this didn't need to happen. I really don't blame Bernier (or the people who are supporting him -- heck, next year at this time, it might be me depending on how things go). I've been very disappointed with the Conservative Party over the years, various reasons... but I always had that sense that at least deep down, they represented me but even with Harper, by the end I sort of felt like they'd sold out. They had compromised to get power and now were willing to stay on that road to keep it. When they did do supposedly *conservative* things, they did them very badly and made us all look bad. And sometimes they even seemed afraid of some of our issues and could never find the way to express them, so just turned away.

I never like the Liberal Party, but I never felt disturbed by anything they did in the past. I resented their scare tactics against conservatives, but I can't say I ever felt like anything they would do would damage the country. This time, I believe they have and will continue to do so-- much as I would like to have a vote that actually reflects my believes and ideals, this time, I'm afraid I'm going to have to vote *not Trudeau* even if it means voting against how I truly feel.